How Hospital Chaplain Scott Klepach Embraces Curiosity and Empathetic Listening
I recently had the privilege of speaking with Scott Klepach, a hospice and hospital chaplain as well as a bereavement coordinator based in Washington state. In our conversation, I appreciated his contemplative approach to nurturing connections with others and his commitment to resisting gender norms when it comes to empathetic listening with his patients. Check out our conversation below.
This interview was edited for clarity and length.
SURAJ: Hi Scott! I’m thrilled to chat with you today. I started The Multicultural Man to amplify culturally diverse stories of masculinity that promote health and peace. I’m curious to hear more about your background and experiences with masculinity. Do you mind starting with your background, religious or cultural?
SCOTT: Sure! I grew up unchurched, which I know is a very church-y word to say. But looking back, I grew up spiritual, even if that has taken on different names and forms throughout the years. My dad’s family was Catholic. My mom was raised United Methodist…well Methodist first, before there was United Methodism. When she was in college, she and her friends would visit different churches and practices. One of her roommates was Buddhist. There was this exploration she experienced. I am saying all of this because that sense of exploration and discovery came to me as well.
SURAJ: How have you tapped into that sense of exploration?
SCOTT: I did a lot of self-study. I was captivated by the beauty of what I perceived to be religious traditions. I learned all the sides of religion, including the parts that are hurtful and devasting throughout history. I’m straddling this balance of joy, beauty, and appreciation as well as pain and suffering – all in one whirlwind, I guess you could say.
SURAJ: Were there particular experiences or moments where you started to gain this insight?
SCOTT: So, I emerged out of an unchurched background into attending Nazarene and Catholic youth groups with my friends and having an interest in philosophy, among other things. I was part of a fundamentalist Christian environment for a number of years when I was younger, which did not sit well with me. It was difficult for my personality to question those things for a while until it really didn't sit well. I didn't know how to handle all of that.
SURAJ: How did you navigate that?
SCOTT: I eventually found the United Methodist Church. I got a license there. I’ve been a pastor. I received spiritual direction training elsewhere. Then, chaplaincy training later. In a way, I found a new life in Wesleyan theology or doctrine, the idea of Wesleyan grace. What stuck with me was that I had the ability to ask questions and actually dig into the questions. I could also walk away with questions and not just these clear cut answers, which were helpful for me.
SURAJ: I resonate with this. Life is so complex. I find myself contemplating these larger questions regularly.
SCOTT: Yeah, the ability to question things and wallow in complexity is a good spot for me. That nuance was important. What attracted me was the idea of the divine, the grace, the love that came before me is with me now and will proceed ahead of me and help. I’m part of that to co-participate in love that is both with me and beyond myself…it’s where I find a lot of meaning.
SURAJ: What does this look like in practice for you?
SCOTT: I’ve done a lot of interfaith work with some folks. I still have the licensing for United Methodist Extension Ministries as a chaplain and bereavement coordinator. I help out at churches, have preached at churches, and have given talks with different groups. My work continues to evolve into something that gives life. Anything that points toward life or consolation is where my heart is.
SURAJ: You shared experiences that give you life along with your work as a chaplain, including work in bereavement care. How do you bring those two together in your life?
SCOTT: To me, the heart of a chaplain and a bereavement coordinator is meeting a person where they might be and being a comforting presence. Personally, I’m delighted and honored to be in someone’s company as a companion whether they are going through high joys to deep griefs or everything in between.
SURAJ: Being that presence must invite a lot of reflection and introspection.
SCOTT: My favorite part is being present and being a guide for someone who is considering the question, “what does it mean to be me right now” or “what does it mean to be human in this season?” The season may be a long season of illness, or a short-term transition of change. There is a question of identity, but also of grief.
SURAJ: How do you navigate conversations on grief?
SCOTT: There are all different types of grief that we may not know. Disenfranchised grief is huge. There are people who don’t know exactly how to cope and grieve when they carry a label or identity that they don’t know will be accepted by other people.
SURAJ: Grief in and of itself is devastating. To navigate disenfranchised grief sounds complex.
SCOTT: I was caring for one person who’s boyfriend was killed in a crash. He was in the hospital and didn’t know his boyfriend had died in the crash. At the same time, his parents were about to arrive to the emergency room to see him. They didn’t know he had a boyfriend. They didn’t know his sexual orientation. Another chaplain said he didn’t know if he could serve this person because of his identity. That broke my heart. To me, that defies what a chaplain means. What it means to be an actual loving presence, a non-judgmental presence with someone who is human and is going through a number of emotions, shock, and transition – in addition to the pressure of “how do I even grieve?” and “when will my parents accept me for who I am?”
SURAJ: I feel for this patient. The number of layers to the grief is overwhelming.
SCOTT: This may be an extreme example, but in a lot of ways, it’s a composite of where I have experienced people asking themselves, Who am I? What do I want? What am I? What is this all about? How can I show who I am? How does it change when we lose somebody or even lose the idea of hopes and dreams? I love to be a companion in whatever is happening.
SURAJ: I’m glad that your patients have you next to them during these moments in their lives.
SCOTT: You know, a lot of people use terms like ‘safe space’. There is merit to that, but I have heard someone say they can’t assume that they are a safe space for this patient right now. If I enter the space with curiosity, believe I am non-judgmental, and want to care for people, I still don’t know how the patient will respond. Instead, maybe there is a brave space or a creative space to enter that hopefully, through my heart and action, then I can help get them to a place where they can feel safe with me or someone else.
SURAJ: It seems like empathy is a value that you hold.
SCOTT: I love to learn and part of the learning has to do with being with people for who they are and not going in with an agenda. I’m here to learn, to listen, and then we’ll all figure this out. I want to see people learn about themselves, like “what are their thoughts?” and “what are their beliefs?”. It’s fascinating to me and I learn from them.
SURAJ: I bet. Being in deep introspection with another person can teach you a lot about yourself. I want to pivot a little and ask how your own introspection has helped you understanding your masculinity?
SCOTT: I don’t feel like I fit in with whatever it means to be a man. I do have a certain gift where I can talk to a lot of people and be in conversation and ask questions. But there are limits. Sometimes I’m around a group of men who might delve into conversations where I feel like an outsider. It’s when they start talking about things which are stereotypically masculine. I feel like I’m at my limit and to the point where I can’t actually proceed very well. I feel like I’m kind of in the margins in a way.
SURAJ: After having these conversations with other men, I can say that you are not alone in this sentiment. I certainly feel within the margins at times too. Was this how you felt when you were young as well?
SCOTT: You know, I grew up around a lot of great female and women leaders in my life. My mom was a very strong person. My parents are both still living, but she took the lead on a lot of things. My grandma was the same way. I had a lot of great teachers. In the religious world, a clergy leader helped me process and discern information. I’ve had spiritual directors as well. Most of them have been women as well.
SURAJ: Has that influenced how you interact with people as an adult?
SCOTT: In a gathering, if there’s a separation that naturally plays out with women here and men there, I tend to feel more comfortable being at a table with more women. I had a lot of male friends growing up and now too, and we could definitely chat. But, I feel like the table with women is where my comfort is in a lot of ways. Part of that is my personality and part of it is growing up.
SURAJ: Did you have male role models in your life growing up?
SCOTT: My mom’s dad, my grandfather. He didn’t seem like a tough guy, John Wayne type. In his smile, you could tell he wanted to laugh, to learn, to help, and to serve. I identify with those things. The way that he would cook. The way he would pick out the carrots for my grandma if she had canned soup because he knew she didn’t like them. Those little details. And his voice. He loved to sing. All that expression and artistry. That curiosity. That learning and service. To me, he is an image of a man that I gravitate toward and want to emulate as well.
SURAJ: Was it important for you to have someone in your family who exemplified these ideals and was also a man?
SCOTT: Absolutely! He felt like not only was it safe, fun, and comforting to be around him, but it was exciting too. It deepened my own curiosity and it felt that there’s good energy there to pursue. I could live into that as well. You know, I haven’t spoken about my dad very much. Some people say that he also doesn’t represent whatever the “typical” man is. Both of us are terrible with our hands and fixing stuff. I can learn, but it is not me to be the fixer, the mechanic man. My dad, who has struggled with that as well, had held physically demanding jobs and he’s done well with those, but it’s a very specific focus.
SURAJ: What have you learned from your dad?
SCOTT: I did learn from my dad about inquisitiveness and learning. He loves statistics and populations and city sizes and buildings and structures. We would play with Legos together and build cities. When I played with toys, it would sometimes be a mix of building things, but also destroyed stuff too. I had my moments.
SURAJ: Very typical of children and Legos! In your work as a chaplain, do you find that your understanding of masculinity and gender informs how you practice?
SCOTT: A lot of times, people are in a space in their lives where there is a health concern. I gravitate toward families and there’s a lot of deep listening involved. I listen for further questions that will invite more listening and questions and processing to help someone else process those things. In the past, I’ve been told that is not naturally a male thing. I don’t know if I believe that but that’s what I’ve been told. I know a lot of men who do these things, but they may just look different. I think these skills are deeply set within me, but I also continue to learn how to do them. Probably from a young age and being around folks as well.
SURAJ: It’s fascinating what society and others tell us what is masculine and what is not. You would think that listening is a trait that all people would have.
SCOTT: Ideally, right? I don’t know who made this up, but we have two ears and one mouth. I know not everybody does, but it’s the idea of the ratio of two-to-one, listening to speaking. We still have a voice. We shouldn’t shut that out, but it’s the idea of listening more and speaking less. We still have the capacity for both, but listening is a prominent skill in a relational way.
SURAJ: I love that analogy. For me, that speaks to the type of man I aim to be. What does masculinity look like to you?
SCOTT: Let me start with this. There is a cliché or stereotype that I’ve heard growing up, which I resist. It’s the idea that women are emotional and men are not. In the same breath, the same men express anger or uncontrollable rage. These are part of the emotional spectrum. It’s completely baffling to think that we could dichotomize so much. There are certain differences, but I think that is unique to the person, society, and context. Let’s just own that we are emotional.
SURAJ: Can you say more?
SCOTT: It’s not like we are admitting that we messed up because we experienced an emotion. Or, now somehow I am weak. I think that is very troubling and very unhealthy. We can and should process our emotions. They feed into some many parts of who we are. They feed into our sense of spirituality, whether it is religious or not. They feel into our own physicality.
SURAJ: Absolutely. It’s an innate part of being human.
SCOTT: We talk about grief and how it affects every part of us, right? We carry it in our bodies. We’re only going to serve ourselves better if we can embrace a masculinity that is open to being vulnerable, open to taking risks of sharing who we actually are, and what our fears and hopes are. Not trying to cover them up. Or, not fill it in with a cliché or what we think we are supposed to say because it is manly, whatever that means.
SURAJ: The ability to defy the norm is a true sign of strength, to me.
SCOTT: Doing this work is like building a new muscle. That’s the courageous stuff. Avoidance of conflict and resorting to violence, or just avoiding conversations altogether is easier, even if it is unhealthy, than diving into the more rewarding and healthy, long work of working on oneself.
SURAJ: That sums it up perfectly. It’s better to do the work than take the easier way out. It’s just the healthier option in the long run. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me, Scott! I enjoyed learning from you.
SCOTT: I appreciate it. Thank you!
If you want to follow Scott Klepach, you can find him on LinkedIn.